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Nomex Flyer jacket
- Thread starter calderoni
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Doctor Damage
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This is a really weird tag, from a 45/P jacket on e-Bay right now. It's by Propper, but there's no dated contract number, and the tag at the bottom (partially visible) suggests it was made in the Dominican?
Doctor Damage
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Been flipping through that technical manual on nomex jackets (dated 1984) and here's their description of nomex:
'Nomex' fabric is a high-temperature resistant and inherently flame retardant synthetic fabric with no-hot-melt point or drip characteristics. The fabric is light in weight, will not support combustion, but will char at 700 deg to 800 deg F. The fabric has good abrasion resistance similar to nylon and is also non-absorbent like nylon and other synthetic fabrics.
'Nomex' fabric is a high-temperature resistant and inherently flame retardant synthetic fabric with no-hot-melt point or drip characteristics. The fabric is light in weight, will not support combustion, but will char at 700 deg to 800 deg F. The fabric has good abrasion resistance similar to nylon and is also non-absorbent like nylon and other synthetic fabrics.
Doctor Damage
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Recently received a 1979 Greenbrier 45/P jacket. No one else bid so I got it for $50. It was a bit oily and smelly, but after a couple hand washes and a round in the washing machine it's cleaned up almost perfectly and the awesomeness of the 'vintage' bi-swing jackets has been revealed. Amazingly, all the stitching is intact!
It has stenciling on the back: VQ1-1004
The seller didn't know what it meant, but someone sent him/her this message: Cool flashback you got listed here!!! The actual aircrew guys were issued their flight suits and jackets before arriving at their squadrons, or Guam in this case. What you have here is a jacket from the PR Shop issue. Typically they'd be checked out by ground pounders (non aircrew) catching a ride to one of the det sites. Every once in a while an aircrewman would have a jacket stolen, want a winter weight, just not bring one to preflight, or trade it to a hooker in PI... in which case they'd check out gear issue with the PR shop. The checked out gear would go in your issue jacket/folder, which usually only consisted of your survival vest and contents... pencil flares had a tendency to mysteriously vanish from the vests. When you checked out of the squadron they made sure all of the PR shop issued gear was either returned earlier or at the time of check out... or you'd better be offering the on duty PR a case of beer (at least).
I have no idea if that's accurate, but it's definitely interesting.
It has stenciling on the back: VQ1-1004
The seller didn't know what it meant, but someone sent him/her this message: Cool flashback you got listed here!!! The actual aircrew guys were issued their flight suits and jackets before arriving at their squadrons, or Guam in this case. What you have here is a jacket from the PR Shop issue. Typically they'd be checked out by ground pounders (non aircrew) catching a ride to one of the det sites. Every once in a while an aircrewman would have a jacket stolen, want a winter weight, just not bring one to preflight, or trade it to a hooker in PI... in which case they'd check out gear issue with the PR shop. The checked out gear would go in your issue jacket/folder, which usually only consisted of your survival vest and contents... pencil flares had a tendency to mysteriously vanish from the vests. When you checked out of the squadron they made sure all of the PR shop issued gear was either returned earlier or at the time of check out... or you'd better be offering the on duty PR a case of beer (at least).
I have no idea if that's accurate, but it's definitely interesting.
Treetopflyer
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That is correct. "back in the day" it was common practice to have loaner gear. Not as much anymore in squadrons.
Doctor Damage
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Thanks... that's good to know. I'm glad guys like you are around here to provide the benefit of your direct experience!Treetopflyer said:
Doctor Damage
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Doctor Damage
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Propper makes modernized nomex CWU jackets which are apparently USAF approved. Price is USD$799.99.
http://www.epropper.com/p-181-cwu106p-mens-mcps-type-i-coat.aspx
http://www.epropper.com/p-185-cwu106p-mens-mcps-type-ii-coat.aspx
http://www.epropper.com/p-187-cwu106p-mens-mcps-type-iii-coat.aspx
http://www.epropper.com/p-181-cwu106p-mens-mcps-type-i-coat.aspx
http://www.epropper.com/p-185-cwu106p-mens-mcps-type-ii-coat.aspx
http://www.epropper.com/p-187-cwu106p-mens-mcps-type-iii-coat.aspx
Treetopflyer
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Those are the new issued jackets. They are very stiff, but great for cold wet weather. I didn't realize the cost was so high for them. They have actually been around for a while in the Navy rotary wing community but due to budgetary issues they were not purchased. Now that the Nomex jackets are leaving the supply system, these new gortex jackets are taking their place. The pants that go with them are also good for cold wet weather. I am not a big fan of the hood that is built into the jacket.
Justhandguns
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Things are really getting more expensive, but I suspect the price will come down quite significantly when this CWU-106 jacket becomes widely issued. I suspect the Propper is the only maker at this time.
Doctor Damage
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Does this mean the older 36/P and 45/P jackets are being phased out? I guess I'd better grab a few more before they become "vintage."
These guys have the MCPS jackets for a lower price:
http://www.militarysupplyhouse.com/jacketsus3.htm
No doubt Propper is marking them up a bit for individual purchases, just like Alpha does. You can get the older style 45/P jackets direct from Alpha for $600, while those guys in the link have them for $447, and I'm sure the USAF gets them much cheaper (remember ye olden dayes of capitalism when you could get a discount for volume purchases? ha ha).
I'm not sure why anyone would design a jacket for use with ejection seats that has external wrist straps - wouldn't those have a chance of getting snagged on something on the way out?
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Treetopflyer
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I'm not sure the jet guys get issued them. They are Gortex, they are great for wet weather, but not really to be worn outside of that environment. They don't breath all that well and you can get hot rather quickly in them. I will post a picture of what I have seen the fixed guys wearing. It has also become popular with the rotary wing guys. It's a longer style coat that does not have a waistband. The one I have is desert tan, but I have seen them in green as well.
Treetopflyer
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This is it. I received mine when they were still in the testing phase before they hit the fleet. They were only available in desert tan at the time, but now they are available in the supply system and they are green.
Treetopflyer
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Here is a picture of the green jacket from the Massif (the manufacturer) website.
Doctor Damage
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^ Interesting, thanks. I guess they must be comfortable and functional or they wouldn't be popular. I imagine the now-classic 45/P and 36/P jackets will be replaced at some point, although I imagine the US military will be forced to spend money on other stuff first. It looks, basically, like the polar fleece type of pullover (zipped in this case) so commonly worn in the civilian world for everything from mountain climbing to fetching milk from the corner store. They have tons of pockets - are those pockets on the forearms useful?
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Doctor Damage
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Here's some interesting info on the nomex/aramid jackets from a facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/CWU-45P/95749185172?v=info
By the 70's, commercial advances in fire retardant materials had developed a new range of fabrics for flight jackets and suites. These changes ushered in a new series of revisions to the entire flight equipment ensembles worn by aviators. This lead to the development of the universally popular CWU-45/P flight jacket (and its similar cousin, the lighter weight CWU-36/P), which traces it's origin back to the 1973 specification for an improved cold weather outfit that included a detachable hood and trousers in addition to the jacket itself. This specification was a Military Standard (MIL-STD) that called for the use of the latest Aromatic Polyamide fabrics that were treated with a fire retardant substance. The previous series of jackets, notable the MA-1, used nylon as a fabric, which was discovered to have a potential to melt onto the wearer's ski when subjected to flames encountered during an aircraft fire. The new jacket was procured under MIL-J-83388A and termed the CWU-17/P. Without a close inspection, it is virtually indistinguishable from the CWU-36/P, a slightly improved version of the CWU-17/P.
The initial contract was in 1973, and produced the most popular contemporary flight jacket since the leather flight jackets from World War II. The more stylish cut was enhanced by the practical deep side pockets with Velcro secured flaps, which inhibit the loss of any contents that potentially could be sucked up by a jet engine and cause Foreign-Object-Damage (FOD). The tops of the pockets were cut at a rakish 40 degrees, which further inhibited loss of contents, but was also conducive to allowing aviators to put their hands in their pockets in cold weather.
In 1977, the jacket was renamed the CWU-45/P under the same MIL-J-83388A, and the detachable signal pocket that was a feature of the CWU-17/P was reduced in size. In 1980, the lip of the "windshield" (or collar) was reduced slightly and the specification updated to MIL-J-83388B. Concerns over the interference of the rear "action" pleats during a potential ejection, led to the reduction in their size, and the subsequent update to specification MIL-J-83388C. The latest modification was a simplification to the stitching of the windshield (visible underneath) in the 1984 that produced MIL-J-83388D. To all but the experienced eye, the jacket appears virtually the same since its introduction, and remains the U.S. Military's most popular flight jacket.
Currently, Air Force aviators are issued the lighter weight CWU-36/P for the more temperate zones where flight training is conducted, and the CWU-45/P upon assignment to frontline units in cooler climates. From a distance, both jackets are virtually identical; only a close inspection reveals the heavier padding of the CWU-45/P. CWU-45/P flight jackets can be found on the backs of aviators flying virtually every frontline aircraft in the United States Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard. It affords warmth in the cavernous and drafty cargo holds of the cargo hauling C-17, C-5, C-130 and C-141 aircraft, and in all helicopters currently in service. Patrol aircraft like the P-3, and specialized aircraft like the RC-135, E-3 AWACS and EP-3 are especially happy customers. Aviators flying tactical aircraft with ejection seats typically do not wear the CWU-45/P once strapped into the aircraft due to the necessity for a snug fit of the torso harness; but wear the jackets during the preflight and post-flight on the cold windswept concrete ramps and in their squadron bases.
The jackets are even more popular with non-aviator personnel working around the aircraft who will do anything to get their hands on one through barter or trade. The jackets are a highly visible status symbol, and although rules generally prohibit wearing the jacket off-duty with civilian clothes, it is done all of the time. In fact, generals and admirals can often be seen in their offices in the Pentagon wearing their jackets in the colder months. The United States Air Force has strict rules regarding the wearing of patches on flight jacket. A nametag is worn over the left breast attached by Velcro to the jacket, while the right breast displays the Major Command (MAJCOM) insignia (MAJCOM's are Air Combat Command, Air Mobility Command, etc.). The left shoulder has the Wing Insignia (a typical wing has three aviation squadrons as well as other "support" units), and the right shoulder displays the individual unit insignia. The Navy has no formal guidelines, but many units adopt a similar style with the unit. The most common is to wear the squadron patch on the right breast and a patch for the type aircraft flown on the right shoulder. Usually a patch with the aircraft logo (i.e. Tomcat) is worn on the left shoulder, but fighter aircrew will substitute the Top Gun patch when it is earned.
Many flight jackets will add additional patches as they are earned, transforming the jacket into a visual biography of the aviator's career. This would include patches for missiles fired, Aircraft Carrier commemoration patches, achievement patches, etc. A quick glace from an experienced eye instantly discerns the wearer's career biography from their display of patches.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/CWU-45P/95749185172?v=info
By the 70's, commercial advances in fire retardant materials had developed a new range of fabrics for flight jackets and suites. These changes ushered in a new series of revisions to the entire flight equipment ensembles worn by aviators. This lead to the development of the universally popular CWU-45/P flight jacket (and its similar cousin, the lighter weight CWU-36/P), which traces it's origin back to the 1973 specification for an improved cold weather outfit that included a detachable hood and trousers in addition to the jacket itself. This specification was a Military Standard (MIL-STD) that called for the use of the latest Aromatic Polyamide fabrics that were treated with a fire retardant substance. The previous series of jackets, notable the MA-1, used nylon as a fabric, which was discovered to have a potential to melt onto the wearer's ski when subjected to flames encountered during an aircraft fire. The new jacket was procured under MIL-J-83388A and termed the CWU-17/P. Without a close inspection, it is virtually indistinguishable from the CWU-36/P, a slightly improved version of the CWU-17/P.
The initial contract was in 1973, and produced the most popular contemporary flight jacket since the leather flight jackets from World War II. The more stylish cut was enhanced by the practical deep side pockets with Velcro secured flaps, which inhibit the loss of any contents that potentially could be sucked up by a jet engine and cause Foreign-Object-Damage (FOD). The tops of the pockets were cut at a rakish 40 degrees, which further inhibited loss of contents, but was also conducive to allowing aviators to put their hands in their pockets in cold weather.
In 1977, the jacket was renamed the CWU-45/P under the same MIL-J-83388A, and the detachable signal pocket that was a feature of the CWU-17/P was reduced in size. In 1980, the lip of the "windshield" (or collar) was reduced slightly and the specification updated to MIL-J-83388B. Concerns over the interference of the rear "action" pleats during a potential ejection, led to the reduction in their size, and the subsequent update to specification MIL-J-83388C. The latest modification was a simplification to the stitching of the windshield (visible underneath) in the 1984 that produced MIL-J-83388D. To all but the experienced eye, the jacket appears virtually the same since its introduction, and remains the U.S. Military's most popular flight jacket.
Currently, Air Force aviators are issued the lighter weight CWU-36/P for the more temperate zones where flight training is conducted, and the CWU-45/P upon assignment to frontline units in cooler climates. From a distance, both jackets are virtually identical; only a close inspection reveals the heavier padding of the CWU-45/P. CWU-45/P flight jackets can be found on the backs of aviators flying virtually every frontline aircraft in the United States Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard. It affords warmth in the cavernous and drafty cargo holds of the cargo hauling C-17, C-5, C-130 and C-141 aircraft, and in all helicopters currently in service. Patrol aircraft like the P-3, and specialized aircraft like the RC-135, E-3 AWACS and EP-3 are especially happy customers. Aviators flying tactical aircraft with ejection seats typically do not wear the CWU-45/P once strapped into the aircraft due to the necessity for a snug fit of the torso harness; but wear the jackets during the preflight and post-flight on the cold windswept concrete ramps and in their squadron bases.
The jackets are even more popular with non-aviator personnel working around the aircraft who will do anything to get their hands on one through barter or trade. The jackets are a highly visible status symbol, and although rules generally prohibit wearing the jacket off-duty with civilian clothes, it is done all of the time. In fact, generals and admirals can often be seen in their offices in the Pentagon wearing their jackets in the colder months. The United States Air Force has strict rules regarding the wearing of patches on flight jacket. A nametag is worn over the left breast attached by Velcro to the jacket, while the right breast displays the Major Command (MAJCOM) insignia (MAJCOM's are Air Combat Command, Air Mobility Command, etc.). The left shoulder has the Wing Insignia (a typical wing has three aviation squadrons as well as other "support" units), and the right shoulder displays the individual unit insignia. The Navy has no formal guidelines, but many units adopt a similar style with the unit. The most common is to wear the squadron patch on the right breast and a patch for the type aircraft flown on the right shoulder. Usually a patch with the aircraft logo (i.e. Tomcat) is worn on the left shoulder, but fighter aircrew will substitute the Top Gun patch when it is earned.
Many flight jackets will add additional patches as they are earned, transforming the jacket into a visual biography of the aviator's career. This would include patches for missiles fired, Aircraft Carrier commemoration patches, achievement patches, etc. A quick glace from an experienced eye instantly discerns the wearer's career biography from their display of patches.
Doctor Damage
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Here's my accumulation so far, which should serve me for the rest of my day. If I add another jacket it will probably be a brand-new 45/P, since those are difficult to find used in acceptable condition.
Winter 45/P:
1978 Greenbrier bi-swing (bit ratty)
1979 Greenbrier bi-swing (excellent, small stenciled numbers for a recon sqn)
2003 Valley (clean but some marks)
2010 Valley (perfect)
Summer 36/P:
these are all in great condition
1980 Alpha bi-swing
1980 Alpha bi-swing (extra velcro)
1981 Alpha (first year of plain back)
2000 Propper (extra velcro)
2005 Valley
2005 Valley
Winter 45/P:
1978 Greenbrier bi-swing (bit ratty)
1979 Greenbrier bi-swing (excellent, small stenciled numbers for a recon sqn)
2003 Valley (clean but some marks)
2010 Valley (perfect)
Summer 36/P:
these are all in great condition
1980 Alpha bi-swing
1980 Alpha bi-swing (extra velcro)
1981 Alpha (first year of plain back)
2000 Propper (extra velcro)
2005 Valley
2005 Valley
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