Panama hats ratings: my opinion

[frijoli]

I think they should be rated in 5 categories.

1) average color. This should be rated using the same scale as ISO paper, or Pantone numbers. This would leave little doubt as to the average color.

2) WPI. No brainer here Leaves no reasonable individual interpretation.

3) Weight. no sweat band, and no ribbon. No interpretation

4)fineness/coarsness (could be stiffness). unfortunately this IS open to interpretation

5) sweat band and ribbon options. No real interpretation, and is up to the buyer as to value.

I think this covers 80% of the actual variation in grading. I realize this isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have now. It really doesn't matter if all the suppliers adopt this type of grading because of the ones that do, you always would know what you're going to get, within reason.

This kind of reminds me of the UTQG on tires. It means nothing between brands, but it is indicative of wear on THAT style of tire inside a brand. In other words a Goodyear high performance all weather tire 200 grade wears out in x miles, and a 400 grade of the SAME Goodyear high performance all weather should wear out in twice that mileage.

I think with the people here we could come up with a GOOD system that is fair, reasonable and effective. I don't think you would want more than about five categories, other wise it would get too busy and cumbersome for the hatters.

What say you?

Clay

 

[Panamabob]

1) average color. This should be rated using the same scale as ISO paper, or Pantone numbers. This would leave little doubt as to the average color.

Who decides which color is the correct color?

2) WPI. No brainer here Leaves no reasonable individual interpretation.


3) Weight. no sweat band, and no ribbon. No interpretation

Unsure of the merit.

4)fineness/coarsness (could be stiffness). unfortunately this IS open to interpretation Fineness/coarseness would be wpsi or linear inch. Stiffness? Depends on who finishes the hat on the higher quality hats.

5) sweat band and ribbon options. No real interpretation, and is up to the buyer as to value.

This would vary from hatter to hatter. Who do you like better?


Don't forget:

Where the hat was woven. This makes a huge difference in price, even within Montecristi.

The actual appearance of the tejires. Should it matter?

The number of vueltas.

Who did the weave.

Who did the backweave.

Who did the "softening."

How the hat was bleached.

Who did the sizing and final ironing.

Who did the "fix-up" work in Montecristi or Cuenca.

I'll think of more.

 

[Art Fawcett]

Am I missing something Clay? Why do you feel there is a need for a scale? Have you fealt cheated in some manner? At this point you can't get two hatters to agree on what makes a good hat, how could they possibly agree on the color tone of the body? Even this would be ripe for unscrupulous people.

 

[frijoli]

Am I missing something Clay? Why do you feel there is a need for a scale? Have you fealt cheated in some manner? At this point you can't get two hatters to agree on what makes a good hat, how could they possibly agree on the color tone of the body? Even this would be ripe for unscrupulous people.

I have not been cheated.

I feel the is a need for the very reasons you mention. Two hatter can't agree, neither can NON hatters.

As far as color is concerned I answered that. There would be no debate if done as I said. Pantone and paper have numbers. They don't vary. If it matches a Pantone chip it matches. Period.

The issue as I see it, and I don't want this to get into a debate about whos hats are better, is that there is no way for anyone to know what they are getting for their money.

Whether it be PanamaBob or Brent black There is no definition.


What's wrong with a standard?

Clay

 

[HungaryTom]

worthlesswithoutpics
With or without this cutesy smiley - it is only high quality photos that are able to explain grades of panama hats.
Art, you also 'explain' your felt hats with photos on your site.
What if you put up some photos of Panama hat you block for us?
We are visual beings - 80% of human perception goes through the eye.
The best would be to list 100, 300, 500, 800, 1000 USD panama hats with photos, weave-count closeups, vuelta closeups against the light, weave-count photos with that square inch window to count weaves. The text part should be kept low; comments should only state weave-count and vuelta numbers - maybe brim and crown dimension.
Even if the hats are photographed unblocked the buyer can have an idea about what kind of panamas are sold in the respective price range.
Such a portfolio would be more helpful than writing things down all the time which is never understood correctly.
Even if a single hatter does it - the customer can see what has been delivered for this or that amount of money and will be able to compare at least the hats offered by the one hatter. If necessary – team up with a professional photographer!!!

 

[frijoli]

1) average color. This should be rated using the same scale as ISO paper, or Pantone numbers. This would leave little doubt as to the average color.

Who decides which color is the correct color?

2) WPI. No brainer here Leaves no reasonable individual interpretation.


3) Weight. no sweat band, and no ribbon. No interpretation

Unsure of the merit.

4)fineness/coarsness (could be stiffness). unfortunately this IS open to interpretation Fineness/coarseness would be wpsi or linear inch. Stiffness? Depends on who finishes the hat on the higher quality hats.

5) sweat band and ribbon options. No real interpretation, and is up to the buyer as to value.

This would vary from hatter to hatter. Who do you like better?


Don't forget:

Where the hat was woven. This makes a huge difference in price, even within Montecristi.

The actual appearance of the tejires. Should it matter?

The number of vueltas.

Who did the weave.

Who did the backweave.

Who did the "softening."

How the hat was bleached.

Who did the sizing and final ironing.

Who did the "fix-up" work in Montecristi or Cuenca.

I'll think of more.

Is a red ribbon better than a blue one? Define it.

Some things can be quantified, others can't. Let's define the ones that can. If a weaver makes crappy hats and good hats, I want the good ones. I do NOT want to pay more for their name than I do for their quality.

Clay

 

[frijoli]

1) average color. This should be rated using the same scale as ISO paper, or Pantone numbers. This would leave little doubt as to the average color.

Who decides which color is the correct color?

2) WPI. No brainer here Leaves no reasonable individual interpretation.


3) Weight. no sweat band, and no ribbon. No interpretation

Unsure of the merit.

The customer decides what value these things add. As to what color it doesn't matter what the "correct" color is, but I'll KNOW what that color is.

Also if you have say 3 hats that are the same price, and style, the same color, same weave and stiffness, but some are lighter, I might prefer that.

I'm not trying to debate things that can't be quantified.

Clay

 

[Panamabob]

I feel like I'm walking into another trap. Goodbye~!

 

[frijoli]

I feel like I'm walking into another trap. Goodbye~!

Wow, you're a little sensitive. I meant no offense. It's a shame you can't contribute to the discussion

By the way I have 2 of your hats.

Clay

 

[Art Fawcett]

I feel like I'm walking into another trap. Goodbye~!

Ditto

 

[frijoli]

I am amazed!

 

[Panamabob]

No offense meant whatsoever.

 

[AlanC]

I fear that you are attempting to quantify that which cannot be. Ultimately you cannot turn what is an art into a science. The answer is to deal with people you trust, who have a public reputation and will stand behind their product.

I'm sure if you contacted Bob and said I want a Montecristi with 'X'wpi, above average weave evenness and lighter than average in color he could tell if that was possible and how much it would cost.

As far as color, remember that there is variation within the hat itself. It's not all one color, necessarily.

Let us know how the various Panama hat distributors respond to your proposed system.

 

[frijoli]

I fear that you are attempting to quantify that which cannot be. Ultimately you cannot turn what is an art into a science. The answer is to deal with people you trust, who have a public reputation and will stand behind their product.

I'm sure if you contacted Bob and said I want a Montecristi with 'X'wpi, above average weave evenness and lighter than average in color he could tell if that was possible and how much it would cost.

As far as color, remember that there is variation within the hat itself. It's not all one color, necessarily.

Let us know how the various Panama hat distributors respond to your proposed system.

The average color can be determined very easily.

I didn't post or ask this anywhere else. So I don't expect to hear from any vendors. This wasn't directed at any individual or company. I was trying to determine what "could" be quantified and what was more
I am a mechanical engineer and autamation analyst, and ALMOST everything can be quantified on some level. The things that can't are left to individual determination. I wasn't trying to force anyone to do anything.
I was trying have an open discussion as to what certain things can be defined in a starw hat that might help to help clarify what makes a hat more valuable to an individual, without claiming "museum" hat and the like.

I was also in sales for ten years. What I did that was successful was allow the customer to define what he wanted and needed, then offered him those things. Some of these are "wants" which are much more valuable to him. What he needed almost any supplier could provide.

As to what is art is up to each individual, but weight, color, number of weaves per inch,etc is not.

I apologize for bothering anyone, but it's the things that bother people a lot of times that can be nullified by defining.

Clay

 

[Stoney]

I understand you Clay, from an engineering perspective anyway. The problem is that not everything in life can be quantified and categorized. Why do my mothers cookies taste better than those made anyone else? In the end art is not about engineering, but rather about style, balance, symmetry vs asymmetry and most of all the feeling that goes into a work which can't be quantified.

The simplest answer to what you're looking for is that the finest Panama hats that are made are made by those that have a dedication to the craft that goes beyond that of a job. These fortunate folks take pleasure in their creation and do not rush the work. Since what we are talking about here is human behavior coupled with artistic talent and hard earned skill, I don't think it's quantifiable.

I believe Alan has nailed the proper methods for acquiring a great hat.

 

[frijoli]

I understand you Clay, from an engineering perspective anyway. The problem is that not everything in life can be quantified and categorized. Why do my mothers cookies taste better than those made anyone else? In the end art is not about engineering, but rather about style, balance, symmetry vs asymmetry and most of all the feeling that goes into a work which can't be quantified.

The simplest answer to what you're looking for is that the finest Panama hats that are made are made by those that have a dedication to the craft that goes beyond that of a job. These fortunate folks take pleasure in their creation and do not rush the work. Since what we are talking about here is human behavior coupled with artistic talent and hard earned skill, I don't think it's quantifiable.

I believe Alan has nailed the proper methods for acquiring a great hat.

Do your mothers cookies contain more or less Chocolate chips is what I was trying to determine. Some things that people think are undefinable really are.

Again, I wasn't trying to determine if John's hats were better than Gus's, or even if they were nice hats. But what are the similarities, and differences that actually can be described.

The original things I mentioned can be defined, and they are not human nature. What is human nature is to say this hat has a better feel to it, when you're looking at it as opposed to touching it. Or that hat is prettier.

I have not been on this group long and have purchased 5 straw hats. The first one was before I got here, and was not so good(see my blocking thread), the others were very nice and a little more informed.
My favorite is my new PanamaBob Diamante. Which I look really good in I must say! (this is my opinion not a fact)

All I was trying to do was establish the differences between hats to allow people to make properly informed decisions. All other things being equal, 500 wpi is better than 100 agreed?

In hind sight I probably shouldn't have said "ratings" in the title as that isn't really what I meant. Maybe classified would have been better. As in This color number, this WPI count etc.


I appreciate the feedback all.
Lets move on


Clay

 

[HungaryTom]

IT IS NOT NICE TO BE IGNOREED

I proposed to photograph hats as they are sold in price ranges.
To have a clue about the overall beauty.
No feedback came whatsoever.
My remark was not meant as a trap.
Photography does not quantify - it displays beauty.
Products are photographed by their sellers.
Displaying products is not a trap.
[huh]

 

[Art Fawcett]

Clay, I understand basically that you are trying to put a "rating" or somehow quantify what makes the good/perfect hat but from the perspective of this side of things, it cannot be done beyond the obvious ie: weave count. Color, even with a pantone chart is STILL subject to each eye and is NOT as clear as you seem to believe. Evenness of the weave means alot when it comes to musuem or highly rated hats, but to who's eye is it uneven?

What this feels like is a setup for failure, period.

Beauty, evenness, color consistency, virtually everything can be argued when talking panama's and most of it is in the eye of either the "complaintant" or the "vendor", each seeing different things. These are not machine made items Clay, they are hand woven by human hands, hand bleached, hand blocked, hand finished. Of course each hat is going to vary and each vendor is going to place a value on each hat as he or she believe to be fair to all. To set up an artificial "scale" of some sort only gives the lawyers in us argument points. Panama's, from the lowest weave count to the highest are pieces of art to be enjoyed and worn with pride, not to argue about .
This is why Robert, myself, and any other hatter or vendor will probably balk at this thread. Artwork cannot and should not be minimized to a widget chart.

 

[Art Fawcett]

Tom, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ignore your thoughts but even photographs will not satisfy many people that insist on perceived perfection. What this amounts to is applying "quality control" principles to an art that does not apply. The marketplace is the best quality control in this matter. If enough people are unsatisfied with a companies product or price, they will stop buying, removing the offender from business. Mission accomplished, without specifics.

 

[Rider]

Stoney, I've dreaded this day, but it can't be avoided any longer: Your mom put pot in the cookies. Remember that summer when she went to stay with "Aunt Becky"? She was in the slammer on a dealing charge.

By the way, you were adopted.

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there! :eusa_clap