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[wnlewis]

Is there a good history - book - about the hat industry?

If there isn't, it would be a good, and rather lengthy I imagine, project to write a really good history of the hat industry.

The hat industry reminds me a whole lot of the agricultural machinery industry, companies coming together, going their separate ways again, having joint ventures and spin offs. Some just vanishing.

 

[Frunobulax]

Is there a good history - book - about the hat industry?

If there isn't, it would be a good, and rather lengthy I imagine, project to write a really good history of the hat industry.

The hat industry reminds me a whole lot of the agricultural machinery industry, companies coming together, going their separate ways again, having joint ventures and spin offs. Some just vanishing.

Short answer: nothing comprehensive. This site likely has more info in one place than any other.

 

[Bill Hughes]

Here is the hat. There was nothing under the band except for the name and address of the gentleman who had it previously. The Byron brand, according to the liner dates from 1929.

Neal Lewis

Based on the liner and sweatband I would say late 1960s.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Based on the liner and sweatband I would say late 1960s.

That sounds right to me too.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Is there a formula for how much brim width you loose when you block hats to larger sizes? It would be helpful to know that I’d loose ¼” of brim per size it goes up…or however the math works out. I’m fine with dealing with one variable and only changing the size and not the block shape or the crown height. Maybe @T Jones can share his extensive insights on this?

 

[T Jones]

Is there a formula for how much brim width you loose when you block hats to larger sizes? It would be helpful to know that I’d loose ¼” of brim per size it goes up…or however the math works out. I’m fine with dealing with one variable and only changing the size and not the block shape or the crown height. Maybe @T Jones can share his extensive insights on this?

In my experience, Brent, there's no formula. I not only size up, but I also change out the block shape as well. The blocks I use are literally vertical sided, (no taper whatsoever), and has a wider "shoulder". That takes up more material. Depending on size and open crown shape, (i.e.), I could probably lose up to a 1/4 inch in brim width, but that wouldn't necessarily be consistent all around. I have been lucky enough, a few times, not to lose any brim width at all. But, those hats were closer to my actual size and had plenty of material to work with, as in a western with a tall crown and plenty of brim. If you're going to size up and change out the block shape that has a wider profile, make sure you have plenty of hat to work with to start off. If you can find a hat, a couple sizes smaller, that has a bigger profile, you can come up with a pretty decent looking hat after converting it.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

In my experience, Brent, there's no formula. I not only size up, but I also change out the block shape as well. The blocks I use are literally vertical sided, (no taper whatsoever), and has a wider "shoulder". That takes up more material. Depending on size and open crown shape, (i.e.), I could probably lose up to a 1/4 inch in brim width, but that wouldn't necessarily be consistent all around. I have been lucky enough, a few times, not to lose any brim width at all. But, those hats were closer to my actual size and had plenty of material to work with, as in a western with a tall crown and plenty of brim. If you're going to size up and change out the block shape that has a wider profile, make sure you have plenty of hat to work with to start off. If you can find a hat, a couple sizes smaller, that has a bigger profile, you can come up with a pretty decent looking hat after converting it.

Thanks, Terry. I’m looking at a western in size 7 ⅛ and has a 6” crown and 3 ½” brim. I’m wondering if there is enough felt there for me to size it up to a 7 ¾ and not end up with a stingy brim.

 

[Blare]

Is there a formula for how much brim width you loose when you block hats to larger sizes? It would be helpful to know that I’d loose ¼” of brim per size it goes up…or however the math works out. I’m fine with dealing with one variable and only changing the size and not the block shape or the crown height. Maybe @T Jones can share his extensive insights on this?

I feel like I remember Art saying that it depends greatly on the qualities of the felt itself. (And I imagine also by inference the abilities of the hatter.)

 

[belfastboy]

I feel like I remember Art saying that it depends greatly on the qualities of the felt itself. (And I imagine also by inference the abilities of the hatter.)

Yes, some felts do have more stretch in them and lose less. I too have wondered if I could find a mathematics guy that could work out a formula but I don't travel in those circles. But as TJones says it depends a lot on the block shape. If I am refurbishing a vintage in order to maintain the dimensions even if not upsizing (or down) I have to use a block of close to the original blocking. Moving from a regular oval to a long oval presents problems as well. Especially if the brim is bound. Moving from regular to long will produce a dimensional brim. If it is bound then I can't trim it (which I am always loathe to do, brim width is precious!) and am stuck with the dimensional brim. Not much 1/8" or so but it is present. The difference between my absolute square shouldered block and my #51's is quite large. The square shouldered blocks take up a lot of felt. I am thinking that the answer, like so much in life, is......."it depends".

 

[belfastboy]

Thanks, Terry. I’m looking at a western in size 7 ⅛ and has a 6” crown and 3 ½” brim. I’m wondering if there is enough felt there for me to size it up to a 7 ¾ and not end up with a stingy brim.

Is the hat as is tapered? I would guess that if you wanted it blocked on a square shouldered block you would lose a lot of brim. Even on a tapered #51 you are going up 5 sizes and at a conservative 1/4" loss per size you would be dangerously close to stingy territory.

 

[T Jones]

Thanks, Terry. I’m looking at a western in size 7 ⅛ and has a 6” crown and 3 ½” brim. I’m wondering if there is enough felt there for me to size it up to a 7 ¾ and not end up with a stingy brim.

Wow. That's going up a bit much with that size and with those dimensions. You're going up five sizes. Although, I have to say, that I've successfully sized up a couple of 6 5/8 to a 7 1/4, but they were no longer Westerns when I was done. I had to convert them to fedoras, and they originally had taller crowns and wider brims to start off with than the 7 1/8 you're describing. I would look for something bigger in size if I were you, no less than 7 3/8, at the least, and that's still going up three sizes to get what you want, but it can be done if you have plenty of hat to start with.

 

[belfastboy]

Wow. That's going up a bit much with that size and with those dimensions. You're going up five sizes. Although, I have to say, that I've successfully sized up a couple of 6 5/8 to a 7 1/4, but they were no longer Westerns when I was done. I had to convert them to fedoras, and they originally had taller crowns and wider brims to start off with than the 7 1/8 you're describing. I would look for something bigger in size if I were you, no less than 7 3/8, at the least, and that's still going up three sizes to get what you want, but it can be done if you have plenty of hat to start with.

I have yet to take a hat up 5 sizes but I have done 3....(7 1/8 to 7 1/2") I did it in 3 increments out of a fear of putting too much stress on the felt all at one time. It was blocked on a #51 so it went over the 'shoulders' easily.

 

[BobHufford]

I have yet to take a hat up 5 sizes

You took my Stetson No. 1 from a 7 to 7-1/2 LO with great results! That's almost five sizes.

 

[Who?]

Looks to me as if you eventually come to a point where it’s easier to shrink the head than it is to resize the hat.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Wow. That's going up a bit much with that size and with those dimensions. You're going up five sizes. Although, I have to say, that I've successfully sized up a couple of 6 5/8 to a 7 1/4, but they were no longer Westerns when I was done. I had to convert them to fedoras, and they originally had taller crowns and wider brims to start off with than the 7 1/8 you're describing. I would look for something bigger in size if I were you, no less than 7 3/8, at the least, and that's still going up three sizes to get what you want, but it can be done if you have plenty of hat to start with.

I’m coming around to this way of thinking. I guess I’ll leave this as a 7 ⅛ and flip it. It should be easier to turn cash into a hat my size than this way too small for me western.

 

[T Jones]

I’m coming around to this way of thinking. I guess I’ll leave this as a 7 ⅛ and flip it. It should be easier to turn cash into a hat my size than this way too small for me western.

Sounds like a plan, my man

 

[T Jones]

I have yet to take a hat up 5 sizes but I have done 3....(7 1/8 to 7 1/2") I did it in 3 increments out of a fear of putting too much stress on the felt all at one time. It was blocked on a #51 so it went over the 'shoulders' easily.

I did two 6 5/8 that way, both were originally Westerns. I also sized up a 6 3/4 and a couple of 6 7/8, all were Westerns. That said, they were no longer Westerns after I converted them. I sized up a lot of 7s and 7 1/8, and even downsized a couple of 7 3/8 to a 7 1/4.

 

[belfastboy]

I did two 6 5/8 that way, both were originally Westerns. I also sized up a 6 3/4 and a couple of 6 7/8, all were Westerns. That said, they were no longer Westerns after I converted them. I sized up a lot of 7s and 7 1/8, and even downsized a couple of 7 3/8 to a 7 1/4.

I try to keep my inventory of new felts in line so stock only L & XL. I find that if I wet block them in hot hot water, lots of steam I can shrink them down in size & still make a hat for the ladies in the 6 7/8 - 7" range.

 

[belfastboy]

You took my Stetson No. 1 from a 7 to 7-1/2 LO with great results! That's almost five sizes.

I could not remember if it was a 7 or 7 1/8...so yeh, 4 sizes up. We didn't lose that much brim on it either. It was a wonderful felt to work with.

 

[belfastboy]

I could not remember if it was a 7 or 7 1/8...so yeh, 4 sizes up. We didn't lose that much brim on it either. It was a wonderful felt to work with.

I have nighmares about it now after I reblocked a really nice vintage Stetson....not even trying to upsize it and had it tear along the sweat band stitching line. The stitches were real close together and it was if the felt was a piece of paper that had been perforated. The sucker just popped and ran along the stitch line for a good 6 inches. Luckily it was for me not a client!