Ask a question, get an answer

[mayserwegener]

Not rougher at all, Edward. On the contrary, it's one of the smoothest felts in my opinion.

Yes, a very soft hand is the desired end result.

 

[belfastboy]

This is a translation from "Der Hut", (2009) by Gustav Menschel who was Technical director of the Ebreichsdorfer Fur Felt Hat Factory (closed 1971) formerly S.&J. Fraenkel Wien, Ebreichsdorf, Lower Austria.

"The terms suede, antelope, moleskin, chamois and velo suede refer to felts with a peach skin finish. The surface, which consists of a short 0.1-0.3 mm long layer of hair, is produced on high-speed effect rubbing machines. Since the rubbing work penetrates deep into the stump - you lose about a quarter of the thickness of the felt - correspondingly high weights are necessary (a 25 cm stump (for a man's hat) ~ 145 g). The quality of the effect primarily depends on the rubbing, the hair mixture, fulling and coloring also play a role that should not be underestimated. Today's mixtures consist mainly of tame rabbits, sometimes with portions of wild rabbits, and hardly ever of pure wild rabbits and hare hair. Stumps that are firmly milled at the core result in a beautiful, even fabric appearance.

First you work the stiffened and shaped stump on the luster machine with coarse paper down to the core layer. The sandpaper tears fibers out of the felt, breaks them up, evens out any small bumps in the stump and thus prepares an even sanding base. Then the dust is removed and the stump shaped into a hat. The actual suede effect is created with P 220 quality sandpaper on effect rubbing machines. The processing starts at the bottom, continues at the top and finally extends to the head. Depending on the quality, this requires several such rubbing tours. The resulting friction dust is removed by vacuuming, brushing out on the touring stick or on the luster machine. To increase the shine, the brushes of the luster machine, which are covered with long-haired goat or horse hair, can be lightly greased. With accordingly Equipped automatic edge and head rubbing machines, antelope effects can be produced inexpensively."

If you want to see the machines mentioned I can post photos. I have a good amount information (production, historical) on such finishes.

I buy the Ukraine rabbit felts from the Millinery Warehouse in the suede finish. The advertise them at 160grams with a fair degree of stiffening.

The Tonak antelope finish is about 140grams...much lighter weight and less stiffener. Both have wonderful suede like finishes.

 

[mayserwegener]

I buy the Ukraine rabbit felts from the Millinery Warehouse in the suede finish. The advertise them at 160grams with a fair degree of stiffening.

The Tonak antelope finish is about 140grams...much lighter weight and less stiffener. Both have wonderful suede like finishes.

Yes, they are both using Bahner machines. I have no idea of the current status of the Ukraine operation. I would have to check my past posts to remember their name. Andreas Bahner (the owner of Bahner Hat Machines) told me about them when I last visited back in September 2018.

Here is an interesting A.H. article from the later 1930s regarding the Brüder Böhm Specility Finshing Machine and related letters from American Hat companies.

Brüder Böhm finishing machines that were installed at Hat Corp of America (Dobbs Field & Stream Hat) in the late 1930s.

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...er-böhm-hutfabrik/?do=findComment&comment=570

 

[belfastboy]

Yes, they are both using Bahner machines. I have no idea of the current status of the Ukraine operation. I would have to check my past posts to remember their name. Andreas Bahner (the owner of Bahner Hat Machines) told me about them when I last visited back in September 2018.

My supplier out of Brooklyn is getting regular shipments. The supply of beaver felts is spotty and he sells out quickly but his inventory on the rabbit is usually well stocked.

 

[Edward]

Not rougher at all, Edward. On the contrary, it's one of the smoothest felts in my opinion.

That's a big plus! I feel the need of a new hat, and I'm looking at one of these from the Hat Centre, a charming Jewish family business in Stamford Hill. The 75mm/3" brim is wide and the proportions of the hat overall are beautifully done to my eye. In the black it's very reminiscent of the sort of fedora you'd see on a lot of Jewish men in that part of town, though it also come in several browns, a glorious deep green, and a midnight blue. *Probably* a brown will be first, but I also have my eye on the green and the blue....

It’s mostly called suede finish these days. It can be incredibly soft. The nap of the furs are longer than a bald finish, but not as long as a velour finish. You’ll also see it spelled “antilope.”

Steve @mayserwegener can answer detailed questions regarding production methods etc.

Thanks. I'd seen it compared to suede, which is I think where I got the notion it might be a rougher finish (for some reason, my head defaults suede in the direction of roughout leather, which I know is not the same thing).

This is a translation from "Der Hut", (2009) by Gustav Menschel who was Technical director of the Ebreichsdorfer Fur Felt Hat Factory (closed 1971) formerly S.&J. Fraenkel Wien, Ebreichsdorf, Lower Austria.

"The terms suede, antelope, moleskin, chamois and velo suede refer to felts with a peach skin finish. The surface, which consists of a short 0.1-0.3 mm long layer of hair, is produced on high-speed effect rubbing machines. Since the rubbing work penetrates deep into the stump - you lose about a quarter of the thickness of the felt - correspondingly high weights are necessary (a 25 cm stump (for a man's hat) ~ 145 g). The quality of the effect primarily depends on the rubbing, the hair mixture, fulling and coloring also play a role that should not be underestimated. Today's mixtures consist mainly of tame rabbits, sometimes with portions of wild rabbits, and hardly ever of pure wild rabbits and hare hair. Stumps that are firmly milled at the core result in a beautiful, even fabric appearance.

First you work the stiffened and shaped stump on the luster machine with coarse paper down to the core layer. The sandpaper tears fibers out of the felt, breaks them up, evens out any small bumps in the stump and thus prepares an even sanding base. Then the dust is removed and the stump shaped into a hat. The actual suede effect is created with P 220 quality sandpaper on effect rubbing machines. The processing starts at the bottom, continues at the top and finally extends to the head. Depending on the quality, this requires several such rubbing tours. The resulting friction dust is removed by vacuuming, brushing out on the touring stick or on the luster machine. To increase the shine, the brushes of the luster machine, which are covered with long-haired goat or horse hair, can be lightly greased. With accordingly Equipped automatic edge and head rubbing machines, antelope effects can be produced inexpensively."

If you want to see the machines mentioned I can post photos. I have a good amount information (production, historical) on such finishes.

Moleskin/ peachskin comparisons I get more, thanks!

It seems like it's very much the same as the finish on a Laird 'Alfred' model hat I picked up a while back, which I've seen referred to as 'velour' but I think is actually much shorter-fibred than would normally be considered 'velour' round here. Sort of a velvety feel to it?

 

[Edward]

If you want to see the machines mentioned I can post photos. I have a good amount information (production, historical) on such finishes.

Interesting links above. Would be great to have (or revive? I've searched, but missed them if we have them in the archive) a thread on the manufacturing process and pictures. Great into! thanks.

 

[belfastboy]

That's a big plus! I feel the need of a new hat, and I'm looking at one of these from the Hat Centre, a charming Jewish family business in Stamford Hill. The 75mm/3" brim is wide and the proportions of the hat overall are beautifully done to my eye. In the black it's very reminiscent of the sort of fedora you'd see on a lot of Jewish men in that part of town, though it also come in several browns, a glorious deep green, and a midnight blue. *Probably* a brown will be first, but I also have my eye on the green and the blue....



Thanks. I'd seen it compared to suede, which is I think where I got the notion it might be a rougher finish (for some reason, my head defaults suede in the direction of roughout leather, which I know is not the same thing).



Moleskin/ peachskin comparisons I get more, thanks!

It seems like it's very much the same as the finish on a Laird 'Alfred' model hat I picked up a while back, which I've seen referred to as 'velour' but I think is actually much shorter-fibred than would normally be considered 'velour' round here. Sort of a velvety feel to it?

It is more in the appearance of the felt rather than the feel. It is nothing like a velour. Velour has a definite nap to it the suede does not. Suede/antelope is a tight, smooth finish with a very slight dulled finish...much like a quality suede jacket. As a hatter the suede finish requires very little pouncing/finishing from me.

 

[mayserwegener]

Interesting links above. Would be great to have (or revive? I've searched, but missed them if we have them in the archive) a thread on the manufacturing process and pictures. Great into! thanks.

Thank you. I have some information on my website (under General Discussion) but unfortunately much is still not posted.

General Discussion

germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com

 

[mayserwegener]

Moleskin/ peachskin comparisons I get more, thanks!

It seems like it's very much the same as the finish on a Laird 'Alfred' model hat I picked up a while back, which I've seen referred to as 'velour' but I think is actually much shorter-fibred than would normally be considered 'velour' round here. Sort of a velvety feel to it?

Velour is a different process. I have a good amount of information on what the Germans call Echter Velour / Real Velour. This is an interesting article (a very good translation) from Fabrikation von Damen- und Herren- Filzhüten, Der Deustchen Hutmacher Zeitung (1933) that describes Echter / Real Velour processes vs. imitations. Also In this time period the very labor intensive manual Echter / Real Velour processes were becoming mechanized. The Echter / Real Velour process starts during Felting.

Hair Velour / Real (Echter) Velour / Prime (Prima) Velour Fabrikation von Damen- und Herren- Filzhüten, Der Deustchen Hutmacher Zeitung (1933)

Hair Velour / Real (Echter) Velour / Prime (Prima) Velour By C.A.P. Pellaio (English Translation By ErWeSa (Wolfgang)) Fabrikation von Damen- und Herren- Filzhüten, Der Deustchen Hutmacher Zeitung (1933) "What is wool?" - "The hair of a sheep." "What’s a sheep?" - "A sheep? An animal,of course." ...

germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com

 

[mayserwegener]

It is more in the appearance of the felt rather than the feel. It is nothing like a velour. Velour has a definite nap to it the suede does not. Suede/antelope is a tight, smooth finish with a very slight dulled finish...much like a quality suede jacket. As a hatter the suede finish requires very little pouncing/finishing from me.

Yes, Real / Echter Velour is a different process. It would be interesting to see how Tonak and others are producing Velour today. I visited the Tonak factory twice but I wasn't able to see Velour being produced. I am not sure if or how Wet Brushing is taking place. I do know that most wild Hare Tonak uses comes from Argentina. Central European Wild Hare types (which are the best for Real / Echter Velour) were introduced in Argentina a long while ago but long aging of the fur is not taking place like in the past.

 

[Jackalone]

Hello Everyone can someone help me with the identification of this hat (model / age/ vintage ?) ? It's a Stetson Royal deluxe by Henri Henri here a few photos to check...
Thank you very much for your opinions

 

[jlee562]

Hello Everyone can someone help me with the identification of this hat (model / age/ vintage ?) ? It's a Stetson Royal deluxe by Henri Henri here a few photos to check...
Thank you very much for your opinions

What is the width of the brim? Check if it's the same on the front and the sides. My guess is it's a Temple, and the dimensional brim would confirm. Should be 2 5/8" x 2 3/8".

 

[Jackalone]

What is the width of the brim? Check if it's the same on the front and the sides. My guess is it's a Temple, and the dimensional brim would confirm. Should be 2 5/8" x 2 3/8".

Hi it's 2 3/8'' every side It's a Temple then ? The hat in in perfect conditions and the logo doesn't have any plastic on ... it's hard to believe it's an old hat...also the price 55 Canadian dollars ...

 

[jlee562]

Hi it's 2 3/8'' every side It's a Temple then ? The hat in in perfect conditions and the logo doesn't have any plastic on ... it's hard to believe it's an old hat...also the price 55 Canadian dollars ...

No, a Temple will have a longer brim in the front/back. I'm out of guesses. The current Chatham matches the 2 3/8" brim, but not the same ribbon width.

 

[Cam T.]

Hi All -- Lelewer Chicago bowler hat ($20 estate sale). The hat was in pretty good shape, but the liner was loose and mildewy so I pulled it out. Thoughts on cleaning, glueing or necessity of even having a lining. I've brushed the hat off with a velvet lint brush and tried to steam out a couple of dings, which from the pic needs a bit more work. The glue in the sweat band has failed in couple of small spots thoughts on glue or should I leave it. Overall it cleaned up great. Thanks for thoughts or advice.

 

[belfastboy]

Hi All -- Lelewer Chicago bowler hat ($20 estate sale). The hat was in pretty good shape, but the liner was loose and mildewy so I pulled it out. Thoughts on cleaning, glueing or necessity of even having a lining. I've brushed the hat off with a velvet lint brush and tried to steam out a couple of dings, which from the pic needs a bit more work. The glue in the sweat band has failed in couple of small spots thoughts on glue or should I leave it. Overall it cleaned up great. Thanks for thoughts or advice.

View attachment 491522

View attachment 491523 View attachment 491524 View attachment 491525

I borrow my wife's gentle lingerie soap to clean liners. Not too hot water as you may lose the brightness from the logo. The liner may sit inside the sweat on its own without glue. Or you could use a double sided tape in two or three areas. Just a small piece in each of the areas should do the trick.

 

[belfastboy]

No, a Temple will have a longer brim in the front/back. I'm out of guesses. The current Chatham matches the 2 3/8" brim, but not the same ribbon width.

Would the black sweat indicate late 1960's into the 70's? If it is from that era the price of $55 for a Temple equivalent quality would seem about right??

 

[Cam T.]

Selfridge London opera/gibus hat ($30 estate sale). I'll have to take a look and see if Mr Selfridge is wearing his own hat when he goes to the opera. It seems to be green, which seems odd or is it just faded black? Any thoughts on surface cleaning. I blew it out with air and tried a velvet lint brush, but it seemed a bit grabby. I don't have a hat brush.

 

[Snowman]

Hello Everyone can someone help me with the identification of this hat (model / age/ vintage ?) ? It's a Stetson Royal deluxe by Henri Henri here a few photos to check...
Thank you very much for your opinions

The sweat says “Royal DeLuxe Stetson” but the liner says “Royal Stetson DeLuxe.” I haven’t seen that mismatch in a vintage hat, but I’m sure it happens.

 

[Rmccamey]

Hi All -- Lelewer Chicago bowler hat ($20 estate sale). The hat was in pretty good shape, but the liner was loose and mildewy so I pulled it out. Thoughts on cleaning, glueing or necessity of even having a lining. I've brushed the hat off with a velvet lint brush and tried to steam out a couple of dings, which from the pic needs a bit more work. The glue in the sweat band has failed in couple of small spots thoughts on glue or should I leave it. Overall it cleaned up great. Thanks for thoughts or advice.

View attachment 491522

View attachment 491523 View attachment 491524 View attachment 491525

The brim binding looks to be in decent shape, so that is half the battle on old bowlers. Many here prefer to see as much of the provenance maintained as possible, so I would reinstall the liner. You can go the DIY route but most competent hatters can do a great cleanup on the old hats, and they may be able to save the sweatband as well. It doesn't cost anything to ask. Snap a handful of good, up close photos and do some checking.